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	<title>Comments on: Review:  Professor Ellen van Wolde on bara in Genesis</title>
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	<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2009/10/15/review-professor-ellen-van-wolde-on-bara-in-genesis/</link>
	<description>Bible Translations and Mistranslations</description>
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		<title>By: WoundedEgo</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2009/10/15/review-professor-ellen-van-wolde-on-bara-in-genesis/#comment-1666</link>
		<dc:creator>WoundedEgo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 22:47:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&gt;&gt;&gt;...At best, her interpretation forces us to look again at whether this text is really supporting creatio ex nihilo, which is much more a philosophical necessity rather than a scriptural injunction...

The scriptures clearly and specifically indicate create EX hUDATOS rather than EX NIHILO:

2Pe 3:5  For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth [dry land] standing out of the water [EX hUDATOS] and in the water: 
2Pe 3:6  Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 

Psa 24:1  A Psalm of David. The earth [dry land] is the LORD&#039;S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein. 
Psa 24:2  For he hath founded it **upon the seas**, and established it **upon the floods**. 

Genesis 1 clearly begins with a pre-existent infinite chaotic abyss. Think &quot;Thales.&quot; It is philosophy (as someone pointed out) and dogma that dictate EX NIHILO.

So the flip side of this whole discussion relates to those who contend that BARA means &quot;create&quot; (as in, &quot;out of nothing&quot;) - which it doesn&#039;t signify, and context protests against suggesting that it does. God BARAed Adm from the dirt, not EX NIHILO.

Gen 1:27  So God created [BARA] man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 

How was man made? Well, ADM from dirt, and Eve from a bone.

While I can&#039;t contribute much to the issue of BARA as &quot;separate,&quot; it is, IM[somewhat]HO, crystal clear that it does not suggest or support EX NIHILO &quot;creation.&quot;

Some have suggested that her reading was an attack on EX NIHILO. I don&#039;t see the dichotomy, but if EX NIHILO and her reading are incompatible, and that is some part of the measure of the worth of her argument in anyone&#039;s mind, then I think they need to give her another listen.

&gt;&gt;&gt;...The verb bara, he created, being joined in the singular number with Elohim the plural noun, exemplifies the unity of the trinity....

Not according to the 4th gospel, because there, the one who was &quot;with God&quot; was his utterance, not Jesus and a ghost:

Gen 1:3  And **God said**, Let there be light: and there was light. 

It is to that that John refers - to &quot;Let there be light.&quot;

And without this utterance was not anything made (that is, of the things that *were* made, because some things pre-existed):

Gen 1:6  And **God said**, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 

Everything (that was made), was made through this utterance:

Joh 1:1  In the beginning [BERESHIT] was the Word [&quot;utterance&quot;], and the Word [&quot;utterance&quot;] was with God, and the Word [&quot;utterance&quot;] was [of the quality of] God[-utterance]. 
Joh 1:2  The same was in the beginning [Gen 1] with God. 
Joh 1:3  All things were made by him [it (neuter) - utterance]; and without him [it] was not any thing made ***that was made***.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;&gt;&gt;&#8230;At best, her interpretation forces us to look again at whether this text is really supporting creatio ex nihilo, which is much more a philosophical necessity rather than a scriptural injunction&#8230;</p>
<p>The scriptures clearly and specifically indicate create EX hUDATOS rather than EX NIHILO:</p>
<p>2Pe 3:5  For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth [dry land] standing out of the water [EX hUDATOS] and in the water:<br />
2Pe 3:6  Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: </p>
<p>Psa 24:1  A Psalm of David. The earth [dry land] is the LORD&#8217;S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.<br />
Psa 24:2  For he hath founded it **upon the seas**, and established it **upon the floods**. </p>
<p>Genesis 1 clearly begins with a pre-existent infinite chaotic abyss. Think &#8220;Thales.&#8221; It is philosophy (as someone pointed out) and dogma that dictate EX NIHILO.</p>
<p>So the flip side of this whole discussion relates to those who contend that BARA means &#8220;create&#8221; (as in, &#8220;out of nothing&#8221;) &#8211; which it doesn&#8217;t signify, and context protests against suggesting that it does. God BARAed Adm from the dirt, not EX NIHILO.</p>
<p>Gen 1:27  So God created [BARA] man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. </p>
<p>How was man made? Well, ADM from dirt, and Eve from a bone.</p>
<p>While I can&#8217;t contribute much to the issue of BARA as &#8220;separate,&#8221; it is, IM[somewhat]HO, crystal clear that it does not suggest or support EX NIHILO &#8220;creation.&#8221;</p>
<p>Some have suggested that her reading was an attack on EX NIHILO. I don&#8217;t see the dichotomy, but if EX NIHILO and her reading are incompatible, and that is some part of the measure of the worth of her argument in anyone&#8217;s mind, then I think they need to give her another listen.</p>
<p>&gt;&gt;&gt;&#8230;The verb bara, he created, being joined in the singular number with Elohim the plural noun, exemplifies the unity of the trinity&#8230;.</p>
<p>Not according to the 4th gospel, because there, the one who was &#8220;with God&#8221; was his utterance, not Jesus and a ghost:</p>
<p>Gen 1:3  And **God said**, Let there be light: and there was light. </p>
<p>It is to that that John refers &#8211; to &#8220;Let there be light.&#8221;</p>
<p>And without this utterance was not anything made (that is, of the things that *were* made, because some things pre-existed):</p>
<p>Gen 1:6  And **God said**, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. </p>
<p>Everything (that was made), was made through this utterance:</p>
<p>Joh 1:1  In the beginning [BERESHIT] was the Word ["utterance"], and the Word ["utterance"] was with God, and the Word ["utterance"] was [of the quality of] God[-utterance].<br />
Joh 1:2  The same was in the beginning [Gen 1] with God.<br />
Joh 1:3  All things were made by him [it (neuter) - utterance]; and without him [it] was not any thing made ***that was made***.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel H.</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2009/10/15/review-professor-ellen-van-wolde-on-bara-in-genesis/#comment-1533</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:08:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=748#comment-1533</guid>
		<description>Thanks, John.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, John.</p>
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		<title>By: John Hobbins</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2009/10/15/review-professor-ellen-van-wolde-on-bara-in-genesis/#comment-1528</link>
		<dc:creator>John Hobbins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 05:15:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=748#comment-1528</guid>
		<description>For a updated roundup of online discussion, go here:

http://ancienthebrewpoetry.typepad.com/ancient_hebrew_poetry/2010/02/ellen-van-wolde-roundup.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For a updated roundup of online discussion, go here:</p>
<p><a href="http://ancienthebrewpoetry.typepad.com/ancient_hebrew_poetry/2010/02/ellen-van-wolde-roundup.html" rel="nofollow">http://ancienthebrewpoetry.typepad.com/ancient_hebrew_poetry/2010/02/ellen-van-wolde-roundup.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Joel H.</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2009/10/15/review-professor-ellen-van-wolde-on-bara-in-genesis/#comment-507</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:09:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=748#comment-507</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
Indeed the words opening Genesis may be translated &#039;God in the beginning created the substance of the heavens and the substance of the earth&#039;,
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That seems like an interpretation, not a translation, to me.  (The often-cited connection to &lt;i&gt;et,&lt;/i&gt; &lt;i&gt;aleph&lt;/i&gt; to &lt;i&gt;tav,&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;alpha&lt;/I&gt; and &lt;i&gt;omega&lt;/i&gt; is interesting commentary, but I think it tells us what we can make the words mean, not what they meant.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
Indeed the words opening Genesis may be translated &#8216;God in the beginning created the substance of the heavens and the substance of the earth&#8217;,
</p></blockquote>
<p>That seems like an interpretation, not a translation, to me.  (The often-cited connection to <i>et,</i> <i>aleph</i> to <i>tav,</i> and <i>alpha</i> and <i>omega</i> is interesting commentary, but I think it tells us what we can make the words mean, not what they meant.)</p>
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		<title>By: michael hobbis</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2009/10/15/review-professor-ellen-van-wolde-on-bara-in-genesis/#comment-505</link>
		<dc:creator>michael hobbis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 17:46:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=748#comment-505</guid>
		<description>In considering the recent attack upon Genesis by Professor Ellen Van Wolde; the opening Hebrew words of Genesis “Bereshith bara Elohim eth hashshamayim…” are, according to the noted 19th century Hebrew scholar Dr Adam Clarke (published 1838), revealing for the following reasons;- The verb bara, he created, being joined in the singular number with Elohim the plural noun, exemplifies the unity of the trinity. Moreover Dr Clarke goes on to comment that the particle eth not only denotes the things created but also the sum and substance of the very created things themselves. Thus, I might construct/create a table, but for me to create the substance of the wood itself from nothing is in the prerogative and power only of God. 
Interestingly eth also contains the first and last letters of the Hebrew; or as in the Greek Alpha and Omega so Revelation in the first chapter- &quot;I am Alpha and Omega the beginning and the ending&quot;. Indeed the words opening Genesis may be translated ‘God in the beginning created the substance of the heavens and the substance of the earth’, i.e.the prima materia or the first elements out of which the very worlds were created.Thus confirming Hebrews chapter 11: 3, “Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.”  It fills th is writer with awe to consider that the same words recorded in Genesis with which time began are to be used at the end of the world when the angel draws the final curtain over created time itself; Revelation 10:6.
It may be that by bringing our attention to these things Professor van Wolde has not only provoked the “robust debate” that she desired; but has rather shot herself in her intellectual foot. 
Michael Hobbis</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In considering the recent attack upon Genesis by Professor Ellen Van Wolde; the opening Hebrew words of Genesis “Bereshith bara Elohim eth hashshamayim…” are, according to the noted 19th century Hebrew scholar Dr Adam Clarke (published 1838), revealing for the following reasons;- The verb bara, he created, being joined in the singular number with Elohim the plural noun, exemplifies the unity of the trinity. Moreover Dr Clarke goes on to comment that the particle eth not only denotes the things created but also the sum and substance of the very created things themselves. Thus, I might construct/create a table, but for me to create the substance of the wood itself from nothing is in the prerogative and power only of God.<br />
Interestingly eth also contains the first and last letters of the Hebrew; or as in the Greek Alpha and Omega so Revelation in the first chapter- &#8220;I am Alpha and Omega the beginning and the ending&#8221;. Indeed the words opening Genesis may be translated ‘God in the beginning created the substance of the heavens and the substance of the earth’, i.e.the prima materia or the first elements out of which the very worlds were created.Thus confirming Hebrews chapter 11: 3, “Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.”  It fills th is writer with awe to consider that the same words recorded in Genesis with which time began are to be used at the end of the world when the angel draws the final curtain over created time itself; Revelation 10:6.<br />
It may be that by bringing our attention to these things Professor van Wolde has not only provoked the “robust debate” that she desired; but has rather shot herself in her intellectual foot.<br />
Michael Hobbis</p>
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		<title>By: Creationism eats itself, while theology seeks understanding &#171; Ad Fontes</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2009/10/15/review-professor-ellen-van-wolde-on-bara-in-genesis/#comment-419</link>
		<dc:creator>Creationism eats itself, while theology seeks understanding &#171; Ad Fontes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 15:49:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=748#comment-419</guid>
		<description>[...] There are plenty of problems in the literal meaning of Genesis 1, but I&#8217;m not sure that Van Wolde&#8217;s approach is the best way of sorting it all out. At best, her interpretation forces us to look again at whether this text is really supporting creatio ex nihilo, which is much more a philosophical necessity rather than a scriptural injunction. A good English interpretation of her Dutch inaugural lecture can be found in Joel Hoffman&#8217;s blog. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] There are plenty of problems in the literal meaning of Genesis 1, but I&#8217;m not sure that Van Wolde&#8217;s approach is the best way of sorting it all out. At best, her interpretation forces us to look again at whether this text is really supporting creatio ex nihilo, which is much more a philosophical necessity rather than a scriptural injunction. A good English interpretation of her Dutch inaugural lecture can be found in Joel Hoffman&#8217;s blog. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: On the Word breishit &#171; God Didn&#39;t Say That</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2009/10/15/review-professor-ellen-van-wolde-on-bara-in-genesis/#comment-412</link>
		<dc:creator>On the Word breishit &#171; God Didn&#39;t Say That</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 15:40:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=748#comment-412</guid>
		<description>[...] the Word&#160;breishit Professor Ellen van Wolde&#8217;s recent article about Genesis has brought the debate about the word breishit to the fore [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the Word&nbsp;breishit Professor Ellen van Wolde&#8217;s recent article about Genesis has brought the debate about the word breishit to the fore [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Professor Ellen van Wolde and bara in Genesis &#171; God Didn&#39;t Say That</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2009/10/15/review-professor-ellen-van-wolde-on-bara-in-genesis/#comment-401</link>
		<dc:creator>Professor Ellen van Wolde and bara in Genesis &#171; God Didn&#39;t Say That</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 23:19:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=748#comment-401</guid>
		<description>[...] 2: I&#039;ve put together a short review of Dr. Van Wolde&#039;s paper.] Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Review: Professor Ellen van Wolde on bara in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 2: I&#39;ve put together a short review of Dr. Van Wolde&#39;s paper.] Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Review: Professor Ellen van Wolde on bara in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: JPvdGiessen</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2009/10/15/review-professor-ellen-van-wolde-on-bara-in-genesis/#comment-400</link>
		<dc:creator>JPvdGiessen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 19:42:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Most Dutch scientists also are not convinced. But besides that, your interpretation of this Dutch article is rather good ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most Dutch scientists also are not convinced. But besides that, your interpretation of this Dutch article is rather good <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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