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	<title>Comments on: Q&amp;A:  What&#8217;s the best Bible translation to read and study from?</title>
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	<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2009/11/10/q-and-a-whats-the-best-bible-translation-to-read-and-study-from/</link>
	<description>Bible Translations and Mistranslations</description>
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		<title>By: The Year in Review (2011) &#171; God Didn&#039;t Say That</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2009/11/10/q-and-a-whats-the-best-bible-translation-to-read-and-study-from/#comment-12566</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Year in Review (2011) &#171; God Didn&#039;t Say That]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jan 2012 16:05:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[[...] is a Sin? Adultery in Matthew 5:32 What&#8217;s the difference between an eagle and a vulture? Q&amp;A: What&#8217;s the best Bible translation to read and study from? The Ten Commandments Don&#8217;t Forbid Coveting Making Jesus the &#8220;Human One&#8221; The Value [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] is a Sin? Adultery in Matthew 5:32 What&#8217;s the difference between an eagle and a vulture? Q&amp;A: What&#8217;s the best Bible translation to read and study from? The Ten Commandments Don&#8217;t Forbid Coveting Making Jesus the &#8220;Human One&#8221; The Value [...]</p>
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		<title>By: WoundedEgo</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2009/11/10/q-and-a-whats-the-best-bible-translation-to-read-and-study-from/#comment-6224</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[WoundedEgo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Apr 2011 14:46:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=1007#comment-6224</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mike, I personally don&#039;t consider the Acts account of a &quot;Saul&quot; turned &quot;Paul&quot; to be factual. But regardless, Paul clearly is basing all of his arguments on the LXX, even where they disagree with the Hebrew, so he is either ignorant of the Hebrew or intentionally gives it no primacy to the Greek scriptures. He even makes frequent references to the Greek only scriptures, which Jews reject.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike, I personally don&#8217;t consider the Acts account of a &#8220;Saul&#8221; turned &#8220;Paul&#8221; to be factual. But regardless, Paul clearly is basing all of his arguments on the LXX, even where they disagree with the Hebrew, so he is either ignorant of the Hebrew or intentionally gives it no primacy to the Greek scriptures. He even makes frequent references to the Greek only scriptures, which Jews reject.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Gantt</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2009/11/10/q-and-a-whats-the-best-bible-translation-to-read-and-study-from/#comment-6222</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Gantt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Apr 2011 09:21:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Wounded Ego, your theory that the NT writers assumed that the LXX was &quot;all she wrote&quot; seems hardest to accept when it comes to Paul who was raised a Pharisee, sat at the feet of Gamaliel, and was zealous for the traditions of Israel.  Are you comfortable saying that Saul of Tarsus had no awareness of the Hebrew scriptures and the word YHWH which appeared in them over 6,000 times?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wounded Ego, your theory that the NT writers assumed that the LXX was &#8220;all she wrote&#8221; seems hardest to accept when it comes to Paul who was raised a Pharisee, sat at the feet of Gamaliel, and was zealous for the traditions of Israel.  Are you comfortable saying that Saul of Tarsus had no awareness of the Hebrew scriptures and the word YHWH which appeared in them over 6,000 times?</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Gantt</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2009/11/10/q-and-a-whats-the-best-bible-translation-to-read-and-study-from/#comment-6221</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Gantt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Apr 2011 09:12:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=1007#comment-6221</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Joel, thanks for the tip about your fourth chapter, which I read.  Your theory is interesting.  However, since you think the letters were never vocalized or even intended to be vocalized, does this mean that you think Adonai (i.e. Lord) was vocalized in its place from the beginning?  For as I mentioned above, in 1 Sam 17:45 (and many other passages), the speaker apparently vocalized &lt;i&gt;something&lt;/i&gt;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joel, thanks for the tip about your fourth chapter, which I read.  Your theory is interesting.  However, since you think the letters were never vocalized or even intended to be vocalized, does this mean that you think Adonai (i.e. Lord) was vocalized in its place from the beginning?  For as I mentioned above, in 1 Sam 17:45 (and many other passages), the speaker apparently vocalized <i>something</i>.</p>
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		<title>By: WoundedEgo</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2009/11/10/q-and-a-whats-the-best-bible-translation-to-read-and-study-from/#comment-6206</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[WoundedEgo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Apr 2011 16:44:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=1007#comment-6206</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;...Its writers never seem concerned with a YHWH/Kurios distinction...&quot;

Mike, as I see it, the NT writers probably never even heard of the name YHVH, didn&#039;t know Hebrew and presumed that the LXX renderings were &quot;all she wrote&quot; (to use an Alabama expression). It *was* their scripture, just as, for a millennia, the Vulgate *was* the Bible to Christianity. It wasn&#039;t a &quot;translation&quot; in their minds. If it was in the LXX, then &quot;it is written in the scriptures.&quot; They never dreamed of consulting a Hebrew source. So, since the divine name had been expunged, it was not any part of their thoughts.

My view of the history goes like this:

* in the earliest texts, God is &quot;EL&quot; and &quot;ELOHIM&quot; (the plural);
* God reveals his personal name as &quot;YHVH&quot;:

Gen 4:26  And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD. 

This was big in the Hebrew text.

* God issued a curse if anyone should take his name unworthily:

Exo 20:7  Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 

* Jews thought it better to be safe than sorry, and avoid using the name outside of worship. &quot;Lord&quot; is used as a euphemism (but the text is not changed);

* Someone non-Hebrew-speaking entity creates the LXX in Alexandria. Some group uses it as its scriptures. (It is wrong to presume that these were mainstream Jews, though that is possible).

* this group knows only the translation, &quot;lord&quot;, and not the ineffable name. They think it refers to God&#039;s &quot;job&quot; or &quot;role&quot; rather than as a stand-in for his name;

* Paul declares that God has temporarily conferred his role as lord onto a man, because of his obedience. Now God is known as &quot;the father.&quot; Jesus is now &quot;the lord.&quot;

* in the future, God will come to the Middle East and resume being lord directly and Jesus will step down and be just another man again.

All of this NT stuff has nothing to do with Jews, Judaism or the Hebrew scriptures. There, there is only YHVW, pronounced or not pronounced, as &quot;lord&quot; or &quot;adonai&quot; etc.

What all of this means is that we have a progression, not a static situation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230;Its writers never seem concerned with a YHWH/Kurios distinction&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Mike, as I see it, the NT writers probably never even heard of the name YHVH, didn&#8217;t know Hebrew and presumed that the LXX renderings were &#8220;all she wrote&#8221; (to use an Alabama expression). It *was* their scripture, just as, for a millennia, the Vulgate *was* the Bible to Christianity. It wasn&#8217;t a &#8220;translation&#8221; in their minds. If it was in the LXX, then &#8220;it is written in the scriptures.&#8221; They never dreamed of consulting a Hebrew source. So, since the divine name had been expunged, it was not any part of their thoughts.</p>
<p>My view of the history goes like this:</p>
<p>* in the earliest texts, God is &#8220;EL&#8221; and &#8220;ELOHIM&#8221; (the plural);<br />
* God reveals his personal name as &#8220;YHVH&#8221;:</p>
<p>Gen 4:26  And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD. </p>
<p>This was big in the Hebrew text.</p>
<p>* God issued a curse if anyone should take his name unworthily:</p>
<p>Exo 20:7  Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. </p>
<p>* Jews thought it better to be safe than sorry, and avoid using the name outside of worship. &#8220;Lord&#8221; is used as a euphemism (but the text is not changed);</p>
<p>* Someone non-Hebrew-speaking entity creates the LXX in Alexandria. Some group uses it as its scriptures. (It is wrong to presume that these were mainstream Jews, though that is possible).</p>
<p>* this group knows only the translation, &#8220;lord&#8221;, and not the ineffable name. They think it refers to God&#8217;s &#8220;job&#8221; or &#8220;role&#8221; rather than as a stand-in for his name;</p>
<p>* Paul declares that God has temporarily conferred his role as lord onto a man, because of his obedience. Now God is known as &#8220;the father.&#8221; Jesus is now &#8220;the lord.&#8221;</p>
<p>* in the future, God will come to the Middle East and resume being lord directly and Jesus will step down and be just another man again.</p>
<p>All of this NT stuff has nothing to do with Jews, Judaism or the Hebrew scriptures. There, there is only YHVW, pronounced or not pronounced, as &#8220;lord&#8221; or &#8220;adonai&#8221; etc.</p>
<p>What all of this means is that we have a progression, not a static situation.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel H.</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2009/11/10/q-and-a-whats-the-best-bible-translation-to-read-and-study-from/#comment-6204</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joel H.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Apr 2011 15:22:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=1007#comment-6204</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Apparently all of Chapter 4 of my &lt;I&gt;In The Beginning&lt;/i&gt; is on-line thanks to Google Books.  (That&#039;s okay.  I didn&#039;t want the $1.50 from royalties anyway...)

As for the NT, I think you&#039;re right that all we see is &lt;i&gt;kurios.&lt;/i&gt;  My understanding is that in the oldest copies of the LXX, on the other hand, we see the actual Hebrew letters YHWH written out amid the Greek.  (I don&#039;t know a lot about these early copies.  Can someone fill in details?)

At any rate, I don&#039;t know when the change from YHWH to &lt;i&gt;adonai&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;kurios&lt;/i&gt; took place, but it seems that the focus changed from the letters themselves to God.  I suspect that this progression is more relevant for the history of writing than for theology, which might be way we don&#039;t see any reflection of it in the NT.  If so, it&#039;s probably a mistake on our part to read too much into YHWH versus &lt;i&gt;adonai&lt;/i&gt; today.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apparently all of Chapter 4 of my <i>In The Beginning</i> is on-line thanks to Google Books.  (That&#8217;s okay.  I didn&#8217;t want the $1.50 from royalties anyway&#8230;)</p>
<p>As for the NT, I think you&#8217;re right that all we see is <i>kurios.</i>  My understanding is that in the oldest copies of the LXX, on the other hand, we see the actual Hebrew letters YHWH written out amid the Greek.  (I don&#8217;t know a lot about these early copies.  Can someone fill in details?)</p>
<p>At any rate, I don&#8217;t know when the change from YHWH to <i>adonai</i> and <i>kurios</i> took place, but it seems that the focus changed from the letters themselves to God.  I suspect that this progression is more relevant for the history of writing than for theology, which might be way we don&#8217;t see any reflection of it in the NT.  If so, it&#8217;s probably a mistake on our part to read too much into YHWH versus <i>adonai</i> today.</p>
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		<title>By: WoundedEgo</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2009/11/10/q-and-a-whats-the-best-bible-translation-to-read-and-study-from/#comment-6197</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[WoundedEgo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Apr 2011 23:05:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=1007#comment-6197</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I found this in the NETBible notes:

&quot;
Gen 15:2  
 3 tn The Hebrew text has אֲדֹנָי יֱהוִה (&#039;adonay yehvih, &quot;Master, LORD&quot;). Since the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) usually is pointed with the vowels for the Hebrew word אֲדֹנָי (&#039;adonay, &quot;master&quot;) to avoid pronouncing the divine name, that would lead in this place to a repetition of אֲדֹנָי. So the Tetragrammaton is here pointed with the vowels for the word אֱלֹהִים (&#039;elohim, &quot;God&quot;) instead. That would produce the reading of the Hebrew as &quot;Master, God&quot; in the Jewish textual tradition. But the presence of &quot;Master&quot; before the holy name is rather compelling evidence that the original would have been &quot;Master, LORD,&quot; which is rendered here &quot;sovereign LORD.&quot;
&quot;

I don&#039;t understand a word of this. Whence do they get the word &quot;LORD&quot;?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I found this in the NETBible notes:</p>
<p>&#8221;<br />
Gen 15:2<br />
 3 tn The Hebrew text has אֲדֹנָי יֱהוִה (&#8216;adonay yehvih, &#8220;Master, LORD&#8221;). Since the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) usually is pointed with the vowels for the Hebrew word אֲדֹנָי (&#8216;adonay, &#8220;master&#8221;) to avoid pronouncing the divine name, that would lead in this place to a repetition of אֲדֹנָי. So the Tetragrammaton is here pointed with the vowels for the word אֱלֹהִים (&#8216;elohim, &#8220;God&#8221;) instead. That would produce the reading of the Hebrew as &#8220;Master, God&#8221; in the Jewish textual tradition. But the presence of &#8220;Master&#8221; before the holy name is rather compelling evidence that the original would have been &#8220;Master, LORD,&#8221; which is rendered here &#8220;sovereign LORD.&#8221;<br />
&#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t understand a word of this. Whence do they get the word &#8220;LORD&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Joel H.</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2009/11/10/q-and-a-whats-the-best-bible-translation-to-read-and-study-from/#comment-6193</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joel H.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Apr 2011 18:34:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=1007#comment-6193</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The pointing was recorded in the 10th century.  We don&#039;t know for sure how far back it goes, though it&#039;s unlikely to represent anything from before the rise of Islam.

We don&#039;t know for sure that they mimicked the pointing from &lt;i&gt;adonai,&lt;/i&gt; but one fact in particular points in that direction:  Sometimes YHWH is pronounced &lt;i&gt;elohim&lt;/i&gt; (Gen 15:2, for example), and when it is, the pointing is taken from &lt;i&gt;elohim.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The pointing was recorded in the 10th century.  We don&#8217;t know for sure how far back it goes, though it&#8217;s unlikely to represent anything from before the rise of Islam.</p>
<p>We don&#8217;t know for sure that they mimicked the pointing from <i>adonai,</i> but one fact in particular points in that direction:  Sometimes YHWH is pronounced <i>elohim</i> (Gen 15:2, for example), and when it is, the pointing is taken from <i>elohim.</i></p>
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		<title>By: Mike Gantt</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2009/11/10/q-and-a-whats-the-best-bible-translation-to-read-and-study-from/#comment-6191</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Gantt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Apr 2011 17:37:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=1007#comment-6191</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dr. Hoffman, please permit me a follow-up.  By the way, I read all the links you gave except for Ch. 4 of &quot;In the Beginning&quot; which is not as easily accessible.  I do hope to get to it.

My follow-up question has to do with the New Testament.  Its writers never seem concerned with a YHWH/Kurios distinction (whether quoting from the Hebrew or the LXX) in the way that English translators are concerned with the YHWH/Adonai distinction in the OT.  That is, the NT writers seem to write as if there was nothing but Kurios or Adonai in the OT.  Why is this?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. Hoffman, please permit me a follow-up.  By the way, I read all the links you gave except for Ch. 4 of &#8220;In the Beginning&#8221; which is not as easily accessible.  I do hope to get to it.</p>
<p>My follow-up question has to do with the New Testament.  Its writers never seem concerned with a YHWH/Kurios distinction (whether quoting from the Hebrew or the LXX) in the way that English translators are concerned with the YHWH/Adonai distinction in the OT.  That is, the NT writers seem to write as if there was nothing but Kurios or Adonai in the OT.  Why is this?</p>
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		<title>By: WoundedEgo</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2009/11/10/q-and-a-whats-the-best-bible-translation-to-read-and-study-from/#comment-6190</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[WoundedEgo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Apr 2011 17:13:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=1007#comment-6190</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[How do we know that they didn&#039;t just point it for how to pronounce it? Couldn&#039;t the adonai pointing similarity be coincidental?

And of course, the pointing took place late.. 7th? 11th century?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How do we know that they didn&#8217;t just point it for how to pronounce it? Couldn&#8217;t the adonai pointing similarity be coincidental?</p>
<p>And of course, the pointing took place late.. 7th? 11th century?</p>
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