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	<title>Comments on: Faith, Love, and What Matters in Galatians 5:6</title>
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	<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2010/02/21/faith-love-and-what-matters-in-galatians-5-6/</link>
	<description>Bible Translations and Mistranslations</description>
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		<title>By: - Gentle Wisdom</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2010/02/21/faith-love-and-what-matters-in-galatians-5-6/#comment-5466</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[- Gentle Wisdom]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Mar 2011 18:51:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=1701#comment-5466</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] that both are in split noun phrases, the specifically Greek construction &#8220;hyperbaton&#8221;). Joel Hoffman also comments on this verse in his post on Galatians [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] that both are in split noun phrases, the specifically Greek construction &#8220;hyperbaton&#8221;). Joel Hoffman also comments on this verse in his post on Galatians [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Top Translation Traps: Relying on Structure &#171; God Didn&#39;t Say That</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2010/02/21/faith-love-and-what-matters-in-galatians-5-6/#comment-1635</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Top Translation Traps: Relying on Structure &#171; God Didn&#39;t Say That]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 14:57:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=1701#comment-1635</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] I discussed energeo (responding to discussions by J.R. Daniel Kirk and on BBB &#8212; then BBB followed up, as [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I discussed energeo (responding to discussions by J.R. Daniel Kirk and on BBB &#8212; then BBB followed up, as [...]</p>
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		<title>By: NEW LEAVEN</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2010/02/21/faith-love-and-what-matters-in-galatians-5-6/#comment-1541</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[NEW LEAVEN]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:17:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[&lt;strong&gt;Making Sense of James&#160;5:16-17...&lt;/strong&gt;

After much deliberation, I&#8217;m siding with Peter Kirk for two reasons:......]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Making Sense of James&nbsp;5:16-17&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>After much deliberation, I&#8217;m siding with Peter Kirk for two reasons:&#8230;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Semantics put to work on Galatians 5:6 &#171; Better Bibles Blog</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2010/02/21/faith-love-and-what-matters-in-galatians-5-6/#comment-1524</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Semantics put to work on Galatians 5:6 &#171; Better Bibles Blog]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:40:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=1701#comment-1524</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] summary of Daniel&#8217;s post as accurate, when in fact it wasn&#8217;t. Then Joel Hoffman posted twice on the same matter. See also interesting discussions in the comment [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] summary of Daniel&#8217;s post as accurate, when in fact it wasn&#8217;t. Then Joel Hoffman posted twice on the same matter. See also interesting discussions in the comment [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Joel H.</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2010/02/21/faith-love-and-what-matters-in-galatians-5-6/#comment-1523</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joel H.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:35:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=1701#comment-1523</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;I&gt;But you do miss the distinction between the active in Matthew 14:2, Galatians 3:5 etc and the middle or passive in Galatians 5:6 and James 5:16.&lt;/i&gt;

Thanks, Peter.

I felt that my post was bordering on too technical as it is, so I didn&#039;t want to introduce the notions of active and passive.  You are, of course, right that the distinction is important for understanding individual verses.

My point is comparing Galatians 5:6 and James 5:16, though, was to demonstrate the possible parallel use of &lt;i&gt;ischuo&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;energeo.&lt;/i&gt;  In James 5:15 the (active verb) &lt;i&gt;ischuo&lt;/i&gt; is, perhaps, in parallel with the (passive/middle participle) &lt;i&gt;energeo.&lt;/i&gt;  At least, the NRSV think so.  Similarly, we find nouns, not verbs, in Wisdom 18:22, but I still use them to help demonstrate that the verbs can be used in parallel.

More generally, none of the introductory material (about parallel uses of the verbs and about possible use of the participle as a verb) &lt;i&gt;proves&lt;/i&gt; anything.  I just think it demonstrates the possibility of what I present.  I hope I didn&#039;t give the impression that I&#039;m trying to offer a conclusively accurate new reading here.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>But you do miss the distinction between the active in Matthew 14:2, Galatians 3:5 etc and the middle or passive in Galatians 5:6 and James 5:16.</i></p>
<p>Thanks, Peter.</p>
<p>I felt that my post was bordering on too technical as it is, so I didn&#8217;t want to introduce the notions of active and passive.  You are, of course, right that the distinction is important for understanding individual verses.</p>
<p>My point is comparing Galatians 5:6 and James 5:16, though, was to demonstrate the possible parallel use of <i>ischuo</i> and <i>energeo.</i>  In James 5:15 the (active verb) <i>ischuo</i> is, perhaps, in parallel with the (passive/middle participle) <i>energeo.</i>  At least, the NRSV think so.  Similarly, we find nouns, not verbs, in Wisdom 18:22, but I still use them to help demonstrate that the verbs can be used in parallel.</p>
<p>More generally, none of the introductory material (about parallel uses of the verbs and about possible use of the participle as a verb) <i>proves</i> anything.  I just think it demonstrates the possibility of what I present.  I hope I didn&#8217;t give the impression that I&#8217;m trying to offer a conclusively accurate new reading here.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel H.</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2010/02/21/faith-love-and-what-matters-in-galatians-5-6/#comment-1521</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joel H.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:36:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=1701#comment-1521</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;
If I am not mistaken, the vowel pointing provided in the Masoretic text includes a stop after the initial YOD, completely precluding pronouncing as &quot;YAHVEH.&quot; It would have to be pronounced as &quot;Ye-HoVaH&quot; if we accept that Masoretic vowel pointing, yes?
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yes and no.  Yes, there&#039;s a stop after the initial &lt;i&gt;yud.&lt;/i&gt;  But no, because the vowels are symbolic.  Nothing in the 1,100-year-old symbolic vowels tells us much about how the tetragrammaton was pronounced 3,000 years ago.  But having done considerable research on the tetragrammaton, I&#039;m convinced that it was always symbolic.

(In fact, the 1,100-year-old vowels even when they&#039;re not symbolic don&#039;t necessarily tell us how Hebrew was pronounced 2,000 years before the Masoretes lived, any more than current academic conventions for pronouncing Greek mimic how people spoke in Jesus&#039; Jerusalem.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
If I am not mistaken, the vowel pointing provided in the Masoretic text includes a stop after the initial YOD, completely precluding pronouncing as &#8220;YAHVEH.&#8221; It would have to be pronounced as &#8220;Ye-HoVaH&#8221; if we accept that Masoretic vowel pointing, yes?
</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes and no.  Yes, there&#8217;s a stop after the initial <i>yud.</i>  But no, because the vowels are symbolic.  Nothing in the 1,100-year-old symbolic vowels tells us much about how the tetragrammaton was pronounced 3,000 years ago.  But having done considerable research on the tetragrammaton, I&#8217;m convinced that it was always symbolic.</p>
<p>(In fact, the 1,100-year-old vowels even when they&#8217;re not symbolic don&#8217;t necessarily tell us how Hebrew was pronounced 2,000 years before the Masoretes lived, any more than current academic conventions for pronouncing Greek mimic how people spoke in Jesus&#8217; Jerusalem.)</p>
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		<title>By: WoundedEgo</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2010/02/21/faith-love-and-what-matters-in-galatians-5-6/#comment-1518</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[WoundedEgo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 12:32:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=1701#comment-1518</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&gt;&gt;&gt;Thank you, WoundedEgo. I don’t think the text makes it clear whether it is God or the believer who motivates/empowers faith. 

Isn&#039;t that the case in a &quot;divine passive?&quot;

&gt;&gt;&gt;So you could say that the verse sits on the Calvinist/Arminian fence. 

That the love of God motivates and energizes the faith of the believer is not a party issue.

2Co 5:14  For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 
2Co 5:15  And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 

&gt;&gt;&gt;...As for “faithfulness” vs. “faith”, I think that issue needs to be looked at in the light of broader Pauline theology and the discussions of the New Perspective on Paul.

Such schools of thought are not a necessary part of a sound, exegetical hermeneutic.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;&gt;&gt;Thank you, WoundedEgo. I don’t think the text makes it clear whether it is God or the believer who motivates/empowers faith. </p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t that the case in a &#8220;divine passive?&#8221;</p>
<p>&gt;&gt;&gt;So you could say that the verse sits on the Calvinist/Arminian fence. </p>
<p>That the love of God motivates and energizes the faith of the believer is not a party issue.</p>
<p>2Co 5:14  For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:<br />
2Co 5:15  And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. </p>
<p>&gt;&gt;&gt;&#8230;As for “faithfulness” vs. “faith”, I think that issue needs to be looked at in the light of broader Pauline theology and the discussions of the New Perspective on Paul.</p>
<p>Such schools of thought are not a necessary part of a sound, exegetical hermeneutic.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Kirk</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2010/02/21/faith-love-and-what-matters-in-galatians-5-6/#comment-1515</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter Kirk]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 08:33:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=1701#comment-1515</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you, WoundedEgo. I don&#039;t think the text makes it clear whether it is God or the believer who motivates/empowers faith. So you could say that the verse sits on the Calvinist/Arminian fence. So safer to translate with a passive participle that can have either as subject, with no &quot;by ...&quot; in brackets. So I think I prefer your &quot;motivated&quot; except that it sounds a bit too like modern jargon for a Bible.

As for &quot;faithfulness&quot; vs. &quot;faith&quot;, I think that issue needs to be looked at in the light of broader Pauline theology and the discussions of the New Perspective on Paul.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, WoundedEgo. I don&#8217;t think the text makes it clear whether it is God or the believer who motivates/empowers faith. So you could say that the verse sits on the Calvinist/Arminian fence. So safer to translate with a passive participle that can have either as subject, with no &#8220;by &#8230;&#8221; in brackets. So I think I prefer your &#8220;motivated&#8221; except that it sounds a bit too like modern jargon for a Bible.</p>
<p>As for &#8220;faithfulness&#8221; vs. &#8220;faith&#8221;, I think that issue needs to be looked at in the light of broader Pauline theology and the discussions of the New Perspective on Paul.</p>
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		<title>By: WoundedEgo</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2010/02/21/faith-love-and-what-matters-in-galatians-5-6/#comment-1500</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[WoundedEgo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 23:04:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=1701#comment-1500</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And in this context, would it be better to translate as &quot;faithfulness&quot; rather than &quot;faith?&quot; A static belief is not in view here, but rather action, no?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And in this context, would it be better to translate as &#8220;faithfulness&#8221; rather than &#8220;faith?&#8221; A static belief is not in view here, but rather action, no?</p>
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		<title>By: WoundedEgo</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2010/02/21/faith-love-and-what-matters-in-galatians-5-6/#comment-1498</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[WoundedEgo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 22:41:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=1701#comment-1498</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Perhaps this is better:

“Circumcision doesn’t accomplish anything at all, nor does
being [becoming?] uncircumcised; but faith, empowered [by God] through love, [does].”]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps this is better:</p>
<p>“Circumcision doesn’t accomplish anything at all, nor does<br />
being [becoming?] uncircumcised; but faith, empowered [by God] through love, [does].”</p>
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