<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:wfw="http://wellformedweb.org/CommentAPI/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:slash="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/slash/"
	xmlns:georss="http://www.georss.org/georss" xmlns:geo="http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#" xmlns:media="http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/"
	>

<channel>
	<title>God Didn&#039;t Say That &#187; translation challenge</title>
	<atom:link href="http://goddidntsaythat.com/category/translation-challenge/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com</link>
	<description>Bible Translations and Mistranslations</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 02:54:36 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<language>en</language>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.com/</generator>
<cloud domain='goddidntsaythat.com' port='80' path='/?rsscloud=notify' registerProcedure='' protocol='http-post' />
<image>
		<url>http://s2.wp.com/i/buttonw-com.png</url>
		<title>God Didn&#039;t Say That &#187; translation challenge</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com</link>
	</image>
	<atom:link rel="search" type="application/opensearchdescription+xml" href="http://goddidntsaythat.com/osd.xml" title="God Didn&#039;t Say That" />
	<atom:link rel='hub' href='http://goddidntsaythat.com/?pushpress=hub'/>
		<item>
		<title>Why There Might Be No Father or Son in the Trinity in Arabic</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2012/02/03/why-there-might-be-no-father-or-son-in-the-trinity-in-arabic/</link>
		<comments>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2012/02/03/why-there-might-be-no-father-or-son-in-the-trinity-in-arabic/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2012 16:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Joel H.</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[translation challenge]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[translation practice]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Arabic]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible translation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[translation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[trinity]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=3250</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The issue of removing &#8220;father&#8221; and &#8220;son&#8221; from Arabic Bible translations has arisen again (in The New American, for example, and Christian Today, among many others), including a petition to put the Father and the Son back into the Trinity, after decisions by Wycliffe Bible Translators, Summer Institute of Linguistics (SIL), and Frontiers to replace [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=goddidntsaythat.com&amp;blog=9279021&amp;post=3250&amp;subd=goddidntsaythat&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The issue of removing &#8220;father&#8221; and &#8220;son&#8221; from Arabic Bible translations has arisen again (in <a href="http://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/faith-and-morals/10730-petition-asks-bible-translators-to-return-father-and-son-to-arabic-scriptures"><I>The New American</i></a>, for example, and <a href="http://in.christiantoday.com/articles/debate-over-father-and-son-terms-in-arabic-bible-translations/7016.htm"><I>Christian Today</i></a>, among many others), including a <a href="http://www.change.org/petitions/lost-in-translation-keep-father-son-in-the-bible">petition</a> to put the Father and the Son back into the Trinity, after decisions by Wycliffe Bible Translators, Summer Institute of Linguistics (SIL), and Frontiers to replace the traditional &#8220;father&#8221; and &#8220;son&#8221; with other words in Arabic.</p>
<div style="width:30%;float:right;font-size:144%;padding:10px;">&#8220;The real question is whether the Arabic words imply sex more than their Greek counterparts do.&#8221;</div>
<p> The reasoning behind not using &#8220;father&#8221; and &#8220;son&#8221; in Arabic is that (according to some) those Arabic words wrongly imply sex.  The SIL has an <a href="http://www.sil.org/translation/divine_familial_terms.htm">explantion</a> that defends using words other than &#8220;father&#8221; and &#8220;son&#8221;:</p>
<blockquote><p>
There are some cases in which it can be shown that a word-for-word translation of these familial terms would communicate an incorrect meaning (i.e. that God had physical, sexual relations with Mary, mother of Jesus; not only does this communicate obvious wrong meaning, but can also give readers the impression that the translation is corrupt).
</p></blockquote>
<p>As I see it, we once again have two issues, a theoretical one and a factual one:</p>
<h3>The Theory</h3>
<p>The basic theoretical issue is pretty simple, though not always appreciated:  Sometimes a <a href="http://goddidntsaythat.com/2011/04/22/what-goes-wrong-when-we-translate-the-words/">word-for-word translation detracts from the meaning of the original text</a>.  This is true for marginal words such as colors as well as for central words like &#8220;father&#8221; and &#8220;son.&#8221;</p>
<p>To look at it differently, everyone agrees that the relationship between God the Father and God the Son is not exactly the same as the relationship between, say, Bruce Sr. and Bruce Jr.  Rather, the relationship is <i>like</i> that of a father and a son <i>in only some ways.</i>  If the Arabic words for &#8220;father&#8221; and &#8220;son&#8221; don&#8217;t match up with those ways, then the translator has to find other Arabic words that do.</p>
<h3>The Facts</h3>
<p>The factual question is whether the Arabic words for &#8220;father&#8221; and &#8220;son&#8221; differ so much from the Greek that they are inaccurate. </p>
<p>But there&#8217;s an important nuance, and here is where the published discussions that I&#8217;ve seen seem lacking.</p>
<p>The question is not whether &#8220;father&#8221; and &#8220;son&#8221; in Arabic imply sex.  Of course they do.  But they also do so in Greek (and English, for that matter).  The real question is whether the Arabic words imply sex more than their Greek counterparts do, or whether these Arabic words are less flexible in their imagery than the Greek.  And I have yet to find anyone address, let alone answer, this key question.</p>
<p>So, if you&#8217;re an Arabic expert, please weigh in on this specific question:</p>
<p><I>Do the Arabic words for &#8220;father&#8221; and &#8220;son&#8221; imply sex in ways that the original Greek did not?  What evidence do you have for this position?</i></p>
<br />  <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gocomments/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3250/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/comments/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3250/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/godelicious/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3250/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/delicious/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3250/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gofacebook/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3250/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/facebook/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3250/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gotwitter/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3250/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/twitter/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3250/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gostumble/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3250/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/stumble/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3250/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/godigg/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3250/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/digg/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3250/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/goreddit/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3250/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/reddit/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3250/" /></a> <img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=goddidntsaythat.com&amp;blog=9279021&amp;post=3250&amp;subd=goddidntsaythat&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2012/02/03/why-there-might-be-no-father-or-son-in-the-trinity-in-arabic/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>6</slash:comments>
	
		<media:content url="http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/70e8261c60153128ebae9505a20623ce?s=96&#38;d=identicon&#38;r=G" medium="image">
			<media:title type="html">Joel H.</media:title>
		</media:content>
	</item>
		<item>
		<title>Translation Challenge:  &#8220;With&#8221; and &#8220;For&#8221; in Isaiah 54:7</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2011/11/07/translation-challenge-with-and-for-in-isaiah-547/</link>
		<comments>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2011/11/07/translation-challenge-with-and-for-in-isaiah-547/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Nov 2011 16:14:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Joel H.</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[translation challenge]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[translation practice]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible translation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hebrew grammar]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Isaiah 54:7]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[translation]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=3084</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Isaiah 54:7 &#8212; part of the incredibly uplifting poetry of Isaiah 54 &#8212; has two parallel phrases, both starting with the Hebrew b-. First we find b- attached to rega (&#8220;moment&#8221;), and then next attached to rachamim (&#8220;mercy&#8221; or &#8220;love&#8221; or &#8220;compassion&#8221;). The effect is to underscore the contrast between God abandoning for a moment [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=goddidntsaythat.com&amp;blog=9279021&amp;post=3084&amp;subd=goddidntsaythat&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isaiah 54:7 &#8212; part of the incredibly uplifting poetry of Isaiah 54 &#8212; has two parallel phrases, both starting with the Hebrew <I>b-</i>.  First we find <i>b-</i> attached to <i>rega</i> (&#8220;moment&#8221;), and then next attached to <i>rachamim</i> (&#8220;mercy&#8221; or &#8220;love&#8221; or &#8220;compassion&#8221;).  The effect is to underscore the contrast between God abandoning for a moment and taking back in mercy.</p>
<p>Yet every translation I know destroys the parallel structure, as, for example, the NRSV:  <I>&#8220;For</i> a brief moment I abandoned you, but <i>with</i> great compassion I will gather you&#8221; (my emphasis).  In other words, for <i>b&#8217;rega</i> the translations have &#8220;for [a moment],&#8221; but &#8220;with [compassion]&#8221; for &#8220;b&#8217;rachamim.&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s true that the Hebrew prefix <I>b-</i> can mean both &#8220;for&#8221; and &#8220;with,&#8221; among many other possibilities.  (It&#8217;s a bit like the ablative case &#8212; an observation which is likely to help only the people who already knew that.)  But here, the whole point is to contrast two phrases that start the same way.  So while the translations get the general point of the line, they butcher the poetic effect.</p>
<p>The contrast is further underscored through the Hebrew modifiers <i>katon</i> (&#8220;small&#8221;) after <i>rega</i> and <i>gadol</i> (&#8220;big&#8221;) after <i>rachamim.</i>  (This is the &#8220;brief&#8221; and &#8220;great&#8221; in the NRSV translation.)</p>
<p>So here&#8217;s the challenge:  Can you think of a way to express Isaiah&#8217;s thoughts here while also keeping the important poetic structure?  (My best shot is in the comments.)</p>
<br />  <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gocomments/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3084/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/comments/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3084/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/godelicious/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3084/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/delicious/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3084/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gofacebook/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3084/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/facebook/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3084/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gotwitter/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3084/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/twitter/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3084/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gostumble/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3084/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/stumble/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3084/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/godigg/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3084/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/digg/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3084/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/goreddit/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3084/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/reddit/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3084/" /></a> <img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=goddidntsaythat.com&amp;blog=9279021&amp;post=3084&amp;subd=goddidntsaythat&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2011/11/07/translation-challenge-with-and-for-in-isaiah-547/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>13</slash:comments>
	
		<media:content url="http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/70e8261c60153128ebae9505a20623ce?s=96&#38;d=identicon&#38;r=G" medium="image">
			<media:title type="html">Joel H.</media:title>
		</media:content>
	</item>
		<item>
		<title>The Lord isn&#8217;t the Shepherd You Think (or:  Don&#8217;t Mess with the Shepherds)</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2011/10/21/the-lord-isnt-the-shepherd-you-think-or-dont-mess-with-the-shepherds/</link>
		<comments>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2011/10/21/the-lord-isnt-the-shepherd-you-think-or-dont-mess-with-the-shepherds/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Oct 2011 15:35:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Joel H.</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[translation challenge]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[translation practice]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible translation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[metaphor]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Psalm 23]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[ro'eh]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[shepherd]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[The Lord is my shepherd]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[translation]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=3051</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&#8220;The Lord is my shepherd.&#8221; This line from Psalm 23 is among the most famous images from the Bible. But as I describe in And God Said, for most people the English words hide the ancient imagery. Shepherds To get started, here&#8217;s a question: which actor would you cast as a typical shepherd? When I [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=goddidntsaythat.com&amp;blog=9279021&amp;post=3051&amp;subd=goddidntsaythat&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The Lord is my shepherd.&#8221;  This line from Psalm 23 is among the most famous images from the Bible.  But as I describe in <a href="http://www.AndGodSaid.com"><I>And God Said</i></a>, for most people the English words hide the ancient imagery.</p>
<h3>Shepherds</h3>
<p>To get started, here&#8217;s a question:  which actor would you cast as a typical shepherd?</p>
<p>When I think of a shepherd, I think of a scrawny man dressed in rags who spends more time with sheep than with people.  In term of imagery, I might say, &#8220;as lonely as a shepherd,&#8221; or &#8220;as meager as a shepherd,&#8221; or &#8220;as ill-dressed as a shepherd.&#8221;  (If you&#8217;re reading this and you are a shepherd, please forgive me!)  So in terms of an actor, I think I&#8217;d pick Woody Allen.  (And Mr. Allen, if you&#8217;re reading this, please forgive me; I still love your movies.)</p>
<p>But we see a completely different set of images in the Bible.  Shepherds were fierce, regal, and romantic.  Back then, one might have said, &#8220;as brave as a shepherd,&#8221; &#8220;as strong as a shepherd,&#8221; or &#8220;or sexy as a shepherd.&#8221;</p>
<p>So even though the Hebrew in Psalm 23 is <i>ro&#8217;eh,</i> and even though <i>ro&#8217;eh</i> literally means &#8220;shepherd,&#8221; I don&#8217;t think &#8220;The Lord is my shepherd&#8221; is a very good translation.</p>
<h3>Ferocity</h3>
<p>For example, Exodus 2:16-20 describes the Midian priest&#8217;s seven daughters who are drawing water for their father&#8217;s flock when a group of shepherds comes to menace them.  Moses proves his amazing capabilities by defending the women against the shepherds.  The daughters even say, &#8220;[Moses] saved us from the shepherds.&#8221;  Nowadays, that&#8217;s a laughable image.  But in the Bible, shepherds were fierce, and Moses demonstrated great worthiness by standing up to them.  (In another clash with modern sensibilities, the high priest thanks Moses by giving him a daughter to marry.)</p>
<p><span id="more-3051"></span></p>
<p>We see the same thing in Jeremiah 49:19, where God is &#8220;like a lion&#8221; that can&#8217;t be stopped.  Using increasingly powerful imagery, the text has God ask, &#8220;Who is like me?  Who can summon me? Who is the shepherd who can stand before me?&#8221; (NRSV).  In other words, God is so powerful that even a shepherd will be beaten back.  In modern terms, again, the imagery is nonsensical.  But in the Bible, shepherds were symbols of strength.</p>
<p>And the famous imagery in Amos 3:12 supports this notion.  There the shepherd is the one who wrestles lions.</p>
<p>So shepherds in the Bible are symbols of might.</p>
<h3>Royalty</h3>
<p>Secondly, King David was a shepherd.  To an extent, this is like the middle of last century in the U.S., when generals commonly became presidents.  In antiquity, a king had to be in charge of defense.  But it also reflects the then-common image of a shepherd as regal.</p>
<p>We see this imagery reflected in Micah 5:5, where shepherds are in <a href="http://goddidntsaythat.com/glossary/#parallelism">parallel</a> with rulers, a literary device that, in the Bible, suggests that they were similar.  And in Nahum 3:18 we find shepherds in parallel with nobles.</p>
<p>So shepherds were regal.</p>
<h3>Romance</h3>
<p>Finally, shepherds were symbols of romance.  Song of Solomon, the most overtly sexual book of the Bible, is filled with images of shepherds.  For example, in verse 1:7, the heroine asks her lover, &#8220;where do you shepherd [your flock]?&#8221;  The famous imagery in verse 2:16, &#8220;my lover is mine and I am his,&#8221; ends with two Hebrew words to describe the heroine&#8217;s lover.  They translate as, &#8220;[the one] who is a shepherd among flowers.&#8221;</p>
<p>So in addition to being fierce and regal, shepherds were sexy.</p>
<h3>Shepherds, Again</h3>
<p>In short, for the ancient image of a shepherd, think John Wayne, not Woody Allen.</p>
<p>And the point of the opening line of Psalm 23 is that God is fierce, mighty, brave, regal, and perhaps dashing.  In other words, &#8220;The Lord is my Shepherd&#8221; in Psalm 23 is remarkably like &#8220;The Lord is a man of war&#8221; in Exodus 15:3.  The point of Psalm 23 is that &#8220;I have a mighty warrior fighting for me&#8221; and that&#8217;s why I have nothing to worry about.</p>
<p>It seems to me that the modern English word &#8220;shepherd&#8221; completely fails to convey this original message.</p>
<p>What we do about that, though, is a harder question.  As I explore <a href="http://goddidntsaythat.com/2011/04/06/what-to-do-with-significant-bible-mistranslations/">here</a> (&#8220;<a href="http://goddidntsaythat.com/2011/04/06/what-to-do-with-significant-bible-mistranslations/">What to do with significant Bible mistranslations?</a>&#8220;), sometimes our familiar translations are so very familiar that even when they&#8217;re wrong, it&#8217;s hard to change them.  I think this is such a case.</p>
<p>(When I was presenting this material to an audience in New Jersey, someone suggested, &#8220;The Lord is my Rambo&#8221; as a better translation.  It certainly lacks the poetry of the original, but the imagery is pretty close.)</p>
<p>So what do you think?  How would you translation <i>ro&#8217;eh</i> in the opening line of Psalm 23 to convey the crucial qualities of might?</p>
<br />  <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gocomments/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3051/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/comments/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3051/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/godelicious/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3051/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/delicious/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3051/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gofacebook/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3051/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/facebook/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3051/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gotwitter/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3051/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/twitter/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3051/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gostumble/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3051/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/stumble/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3051/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/godigg/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3051/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/digg/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3051/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/goreddit/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3051/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/reddit/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/3051/" /></a> <img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=goddidntsaythat.com&amp;blog=9279021&amp;post=3051&amp;subd=goddidntsaythat&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2011/10/21/the-lord-isnt-the-shepherd-you-think-or-dont-mess-with-the-shepherds/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>25</slash:comments>
	
		<media:content url="http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/70e8261c60153128ebae9505a20623ce?s=96&#38;d=identicon&#38;r=G" medium="image">
			<media:title type="html">Joel H.</media:title>
		</media:content>
	</item>
		<item>
		<title>&#8220;Judge Not&#8221; And Preserving Poetry</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2011/04/15/judge-not-and-preserving-poetry/</link>
		<comments>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2011/04/15/judge-not-and-preserving-poetry/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Apr 2011 13:39:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Joel H.</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[translation challenge]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[translation practice]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[translation theory]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible translation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Matthew 7:1]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[poetry]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[translation]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=2748</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Judge Not &#8220;Judge not&#8230;&#8221; Most people are familiar with this famous verse from Matthew 7:1 (and the similar Luke 6:37), and know that the full line runs along the lines of &#8220;Judge not, that you be not judged&#8221; (ESV). The content of the line is pretty easy to understand, but the poetry is very hard [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=goddidntsaythat.com&amp;blog=9279021&amp;post=2748&amp;subd=goddidntsaythat&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<h3>Judge Not</h3>
<p>&#8220;Judge not&#8230;&#8221;  Most people are familiar with this famous verse from Matthew 7:1 (and the similar Luke 6:37), and know that the full line runs along the lines of &#8220;Judge not, that you be not judged&#8221; (ESV).</p>
<p>The content of the line is pretty easy to understand, but the poetry is very hard to convey in English, as evidenced by the wide variety of translations:  &#8220;Stop judging, that you may not be judged&#8221; (NAB), &#8220;Do not judge, or you too will be judged&#8221; (NIV), &#8220;Do not judge, so that you may not be judged&#8221; (NRSV), etc.</p>
<h3>The Greek of Matthew 7:1</h3>
<p>The Greek is a pithy five-word admonition:  <i>mi krinete ina mi krithite.</i>  The word <i>mi</I> means &#8220;not,&#8221; <i>krinete</i> means &#8220;judge,&#8221; <i>ina</i> means &#8220;so that,&#8221; and <i>krithite</i> means &#8220;be judged.&#8221;  In addition to its brevity, the Greek offers a certain symmetry.  The word <i>ina</i> sits nicely in the middle, with the two similar-sounding phrases <i>mi krinete</i> and <i>mi krithite</i> on either side.  Except for the <I>-ne-</i> in the first part and the <i>-thi-</i> in the second, both sides are identical.</p>
<h3>On Poetry and Symmetry</h3>
<p>Similar in English is &#8220;you are what you eat,&#8221; where &#8220;what&#8221; fits nicely between the similar &#8220;you are&#8221; and &#8220;you eat.&#8221;  (The original comes from German, where &#8220;are&#8221; and &#8220;eat&#8221; are both pronounced <i>ist,</i> so the similarity is even more pronounced:  <I>man ist vas man isst.)</i></p>
<p>Also similar in nature, if not in detail, is the English &#8220;no pain, no gain.&#8221;  The phrase is successful because of the symmetry, and because &#8220;pain&#8221; and &#8220;gain&#8221; rhyme.  This is why the phrase &#8220;without pain one is unlikely to achieve much&#8221; is unlikely to catch on as a training motto among athletes, even though it means the same thing as &#8220;no pain, no gain.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yet most translations of Matthew 7:1 are like &#8220;without pain one is unlikely to achieve much.&#8221;  The translations miss the poetry.</p>
<p>Some people may dismiss the value of the poetry, but I disagree.  I think that poetic phrasing is important.  This is why so many of our proverbs either rhyme or otherwise &#8220;sound well&#8221; (as Mark Twain would say):  &#8220;A stitch in time saves nine,&#8221; &#8220;no rhyme or reason,&#8221; &#8220;don&#8217;t do the crime if you can&#8217;t do the time,&#8221; and many, many more.  And even if the poetry isn&#8217;t as important as I think, it&#8217;s still part of the original.  It seems to me that a good translation should convey it.</p>
<h3>On Grammaticality</h3>
<p>Furthermore, also like my poor paraphrase of &#8220;no pain, no gain,&#8221; translations of Matthew 7:1 tend to sound stilted and awkward.  &#8220;Judge not,&#8221; for example, is no longer standard English.  (Compare, &#8220;comment not that you be not flamed.&#8221;)</p>
<p>And I don&#8217;t think that &#8220;judge&#8221; without an object is particularly successful in English.  At least in my dialect, &#8220;I saw the modern art paintings, and I couldn&#8217;t help but judge&#8221; doesn&#8217;t work as well as &#8220;&#8230;couldn&#8217;t help but judge them.&#8221;  I understand why translators want to force the English construction &#8220;do not judge.&#8221;  They want to make the first part sound like the second part, &#8220;do not be judged.&#8221;  But their decision comes at the expense of English grammar.  In English (unlike in Greek), the most common phrasing is &#8220;do not judge <i>something,&#8221;</i> as in &#8220;do not judge others&#8221; or &#8220;do not judge people.&#8221;</p>
<p>Again, not everyone thinks that a translation into Modern English has to be in Modern English (at the risk of prejudicing the issue), but I do.</p>
<h3>Translating Matthew 7:1</h3>
<p>So where does that leave us?</p>
<p>We need a translation that means &#8220;do not judge (other) people, so that you will not be judged.&#8221;  It should be symmetrical, with the first and second parts sounding similar.   It should be pithy.  And it should be grammatical in English.</p>
<p>In general, I&#8217;m unwilling to compromise on grammaticality in English, at least when the original is grammatical (in the original language), and I&#8217;m unwilling to compromise on meaning.  When it comes to poetry, I think poetic texts should be translated poetically, but the details of the poetry can differ.  So in this case, I think the symmetry is important, but I think &#8212; if something has to go &#8212; we can do without the pithiness.</p>
<p>So the best I can come up with is this:  &#8220;Do not judge others, so that others do not judge you.&#8221;</p>
<p>What do you think?  And can you come up with something even closer to the original?</p>
<br />  <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gocomments/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2748/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/comments/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2748/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/godelicious/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2748/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/delicious/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2748/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gofacebook/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2748/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/facebook/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2748/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gotwitter/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2748/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/twitter/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2748/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gostumble/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2748/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/stumble/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2748/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/godigg/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2748/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/digg/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2748/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/goreddit/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2748/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/reddit/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2748/" /></a> <img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=goddidntsaythat.com&amp;blog=9279021&amp;post=2748&amp;subd=goddidntsaythat&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2011/04/15/judge-not-and-preserving-poetry/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>21</slash:comments>
	
		<media:content url="http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/70e8261c60153128ebae9505a20623ce?s=96&#38;d=identicon&#38;r=G" medium="image">
			<media:title type="html">Joel H.</media:title>
		</media:content>
	</item>
		<item>
		<title>Translation Challenge:  Snow and Ice in Psalm 147</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2011/02/02/translation-challenge-snow-and-ice-in-psalm-147/</link>
		<comments>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2011/02/02/translation-challenge-snow-and-ice-in-psalm-147/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Feb 2011 16:05:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Joel H.</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[translation challenge]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[translation practice]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[translation theory]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible translation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[blizzard of 2011]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Psalm 147]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[translation]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=2596</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[With much of the U.S. buried under snow and ice (myself included), I thought I&#8217;d turn to the end of Psalm 147. The NRSV translates Psalm 147:15-18 as follows: [15] He sends out his command to the earth; his word runs swiftly. [16] He gives snow like wool; he scatters frost like ashes. [17] He [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=goddidntsaythat.com&amp;blog=9279021&amp;post=2596&amp;subd=goddidntsaythat&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With much of the U.S. buried under snow and ice (myself included), I thought I&#8217;d turn to the end of Psalm 147.</p>
<p><div id="attachment_2607" class="wp-caption alignright" style="width: 310px"><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/joelmhoffman/5395953316/"><img src="http://goddidntsaythat.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/winterwonderlandwindow.jpg?w=300&#038;h=177" alt="Winter Wonderland Window" title="Winter Wonderland Window" width="300" height="177" class="size-medium wp-image-2607" /></a><p class="wp-caption-text">Winter Wonderland Window</p></div>The NRSV translates Psalm 147:15-18 as follows:</p>
<blockquote><p>
[15] He sends out his command to the earth; his word runs swiftly. [16] He gives snow like wool; he scatters frost like ashes.  [17] He hurls down hail like crumbs &#8212; who can stand before his cold?  [18] He sends out his word, and melts them; he makes his wind blow, and the waters flow.
</p></blockquote>
<p>While that translation captures the general meaning of the text, it misses the beautiful word plays and poetry of the original.</p>
<p>Verse 16 is particularly poetic, so we start there.  Here&#8217;s a word by word translation, with some of the Hebrew words:</p>
<blockquote><p>
He gives snow like wool <I>[katzemer];</i> frost <i>[k'for]</i> like ash <i>[ka'efer]</i> he scatters <i>[y'fazer].</I>
</p></blockquote>
<p>And here&#8217;s the same thing with some capital letters and color highlighting to illustrate the assonance.</p>
<blockquote><p>
He gives snow like wool <I>[<font color="#ff0000"><B>K</b></font>atzeme<font color="#00ff00"><B>R</b></font>];</i> frost <i>[<font color="#ff0000"><B>K</b></font>'<font color="#3333ff"><B>F</b></font>o<font color="#00ff00"><B>R</b></font>]</i> like ash <i>[<font color="#ff0000"><B>K</b></font>a'e<font color="#3333ff"><B>F</b></font>e<font color="#00ff00"><B>R</b></font>]</i> he scatters <i>[y'<font color="#3333ff"><B>F</b></font>aze<font color="#00ff00"><B>R</b></font>].</I>
</p></blockquote>
<p>In particular, notice the progression from <I>K&#8217;FoR</i> (&#8220;frost&#8221;) to <i>Ka&#8217;eFeR</i> (&#8220;like dust&#8221;) in the middle of the verse:</p>
<p><I><B>Translation Challenge #1</b>:  Can you think of a way of preserving the triple similarity of sounds in <i>k&#8217;for</i> and <i>ka&#8217;efer?</i>  What about the double similarities in the other words?</i></p>
<p>Now that you know the kinds of things to look for, here&#8217;s Verse 15:</p>
<blockquote><p>
He sends out <I>[ha-sholei'ach]</i> his command <i>[imrato]</i> to the earth <i>[aretz];</i> swiftly <i>[ad-m'heira]</i> runs <i>[yarutz]</i> his word <i>[d'varo].</i>
</p></blockquote>
<p>This time, we see <i>iMRato</i> in the first half of the verse followed by <i>M&#8217;heiRa</i> in the second, and <i>eReTZ</i> followed by <i>yaRuTZ.</i></p>
<p>Similarly, in Verse 17:</p>
<blockquote><p>
He hurls down hail <I>[KaR'chO]</i> like crumbs &#8212; who can stand before his cold <i>[KaRatO]?</i>
</p></blockquote>
<p><I><B>Translation Challenge #2</b>:  Can you think of a way of preserving these sound repetitions?</i></p>
<p>In addition to the sound repetition, we find a repeating theme.  Here are the first words of each of these four lines:</p>
<blockquote><p>
15: <I>ha-sholei&#8217;ach</i> (&#8220;He sends&#8221; &#8212; or &#8220;the one who sends&#8221;)<br />
16: <i>ha-notein</i> (&#8220;He gives&#8221; &#8212; or &#8220;the who who gives&#8221;)<br />
17: <i>mashlich</i> (&#8220;He hurls&#8221; &#8212; or &#8220;hurling&#8221;)<br />
18: <i>yishlach</i> (&#8220;He sends&#8221; &#8212; or &#8220;he will send&#8221;)
</p></blockquote>
<p>Three of these &#8212; in Verses 15, 16, and 18 &#8212; come from the same or a similar-sopunding three-letter root in Hebrew:  Sh.L.Ch. (The final sound is similar but different, a fact that my transliteration scheme hides.) So all three are related in much the way that &#8220;writ&#8221; &#8220;writing&#8221; and &#8220;writer&#8221; are in English.  But none of the four is the same word.</p>
<p><I><B>Translation Challenge #3</b>:  Can you think of a translation that preserves the way these four lines begin?</i></p>
<p>As you work on these four lines, notice too the <a href="http://goddidntsaythat.com/glossary/#chiasmus">chiasm</a>:  The first line refers to God&#8217;s command and word, while the second follows up with snow and frost.  Then the third and fourth lines repeat the pattern in reverse order.  The third line refers to ice and cold, while the fourth returns to God&#8217;s word, augmenting it with wind.</p>
<p>So, <I><B>Translation Challenge #4</b>:  Can you translate all four lines?</i></p>
<br />  <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gocomments/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2596/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/comments/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2596/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/godelicious/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2596/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/delicious/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2596/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gofacebook/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2596/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/facebook/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2596/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gotwitter/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2596/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/twitter/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2596/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gostumble/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2596/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/stumble/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2596/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/godigg/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2596/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/digg/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2596/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/goreddit/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2596/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/reddit/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2596/" /></a> <img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=goddidntsaythat.com&amp;blog=9279021&amp;post=2596&amp;subd=goddidntsaythat&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2011/02/02/translation-challenge-snow-and-ice-in-psalm-147/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>5</slash:comments>
	
		<media:content url="http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/70e8261c60153128ebae9505a20623ce?s=96&#38;d=identicon&#38;r=G" medium="image">
			<media:title type="html">Joel H.</media:title>
		</media:content>

		<media:content url="http://goddidntsaythat.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/winterwonderlandwindow.jpg?w=300" medium="image">
			<media:title type="html">Winter Wonderland Window</media:title>
		</media:content>
	</item>
		<item>
		<title>Translation Challenge:  Joseph, Pharaoh, and the Servants&#8217; Heads</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2011/01/13/translation-challenge-joseph-pharaoh-and-the-servants-heads/</link>
		<comments>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2011/01/13/translation-challenge-joseph-pharaoh-and-the-servants-heads/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Jan 2011 15:47:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Joel H.</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[translation challenge]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible translation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[idiom]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[translation]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=2546</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Joseph narrative is brilliantly written in a way that few translations capture. One example comes when Joseph, having been thrown in jail, is asked to interpret the dreams of two of Pharaohs&#8217; servants &#8212; the butler and the baker &#8212; who have also been imprisoned. First comes the butler, and Joseph has good news [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=goddidntsaythat.com&amp;blog=9279021&amp;post=2546&amp;subd=goddidntsaythat&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Joseph narrative is brilliantly written in a way that few translations capture.  One example comes when Joseph, having been thrown in jail, is asked to interpret the dreams of two of Pharaohs&#8217; servants &#8212; the butler and the baker &#8212; who have also been imprisoned.</p>
<p>First comes the butler, and Joseph has good news for him:  &#8220;Pharaoh &#8230; will restore you to your position&#8221; (Genesis 40:13).</p>
<p>For the baker, the news is not so good:  &#8220;Pharaoh &#8230; will hang you on a tree&#8221; (Genesis 40:19).</p>
<p>The key text, though, lies in the parts I just left out.</p>
<p>In the case of the butler, the Hebrew is, literally, &#8220;Pharaoh will lift up your head&#8230;,&#8221; which, in Hebrew, was a common expression indicating something good.  For example, in Jeremiah 52:31 Evilmerodach (that&#8217;s the guy&#8217;s name) &#8220;lifted up the head&#8221; of King Jehoiachin, and &#8220;brought him forth out of prison.&#8221;</p>
<p>In the case of the baker, Joseph starts with the same exact phrase:  &#8220;Pharaoh will lift up your head&#8230;&#8221; but then Joseph adds, &#8220;off of you!&#8221;</p>
<p>We can almost see the scene playing out.  Joseph has already given good news to one servant.  The other waits anxiously for Joseph&#8217;s verdict.  Joseph starts speaking, and things seem to be looking up.  &#8220;Pharaoh will lift up your head&#8230; &#8212; so far so good! &#8212; &#8220;&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8230;off of you and hang you on a tree.&#8221;  Oops.</p>
<p>The obvious question is how to capture this exceptional dialogue in English.  (In <a href="http://www.AndGodSaid.com"><I>And God Said</i></a>, I note that &#8220;Pharaoh wants you hanging around the court&#8221; almost works for both servants.)</p>
<p>Certainly the English &#8220;lift up your head&#8221; doesn&#8217;t work for the butler.  That&#8217;s not an expression in English (though that doesn&#8217;t stop most translations from using that flawed wording).  But alternatives like the CEV&#8217;s &#8220;the king will pardon you&#8221; don&#8217;t seem to offer any hope of preserving the word play.</p>
<p>Can anyone come up with a good way to translate these two lines?</p>
<br />  <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gocomments/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2546/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/comments/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2546/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/godelicious/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2546/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/delicious/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2546/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gofacebook/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2546/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/facebook/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2546/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gotwitter/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2546/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/twitter/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2546/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gostumble/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2546/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/stumble/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2546/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/godigg/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2546/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/digg/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2546/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/goreddit/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2546/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/reddit/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2546/" /></a> <img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=goddidntsaythat.com&amp;blog=9279021&amp;post=2546&amp;subd=goddidntsaythat&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2011/01/13/translation-challenge-joseph-pharaoh-and-the-servants-heads/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>8</slash:comments>
	
		<media:content url="http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/70e8261c60153128ebae9505a20623ce?s=96&#38;d=identicon&#38;r=G" medium="image">
			<media:title type="html">Joel H.</media:title>
		</media:content>
	</item>
		<item>
		<title>Love is what love does:  on 1 Corinthians 13</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2010/06/27/love-is-what-love-does-on-1-corinthians-13/</link>
		<comments>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2010/06/27/love-is-what-love-does-on-1-corinthians-13/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jun 2010 15:04:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Joel H.</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[translation challenge]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[translation practice]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[1 Corinthians 13]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible translation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[translation]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=2170</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The first 13 verses of 1 Corinthians 13 form an extended poetic passage about love. As with all stylistic prose, this text is difficult to translate well. In particular, verses 4-7 present a challenge to the translator, because in those verses &#8220;love&#8221; is personified through 15 Greek verbs that describe what love does. (As an [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=goddidntsaythat.com&amp;blog=9279021&amp;post=2170&amp;subd=goddidntsaythat&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The first 13 verses of 1 Corinthians 13 form an extended poetic passage about love.  As with all stylistic prose, this text is difficult to translate well.</p>
<p>In particular, verses 4-7 present a challenge to the translator, because in those verses &#8220;love&#8221; is personified through 15 Greek verbs that describe what love does.  (As an aside:  it&#8217;s tempting to capitalize &#8220;Love&#8221; here:  &#8220;&#8230;verbs that describe what Love does.&#8221;)</p>
<p>As I&#8217;ve <a href="http://goddidntsaythat.com/2010/01/18/top-translation-traps-slavery-to-parts-of-speech/">already pointed out</a>, mimicking parts of speech when translating generally has very little merit.  So there&#8217;s no particular reason to translate a Greek verb as an English verb, rather than, say, an English adjective, or something else.</p>
<p>Most translations take the first Greek verb, in 13:4 &#8212; <i>makrothumeo</i> &#8212; and render it as the adjectival &#8220;is patient&#8221; rather than, for example, the now stilted &#8220;suffereth long&#8221; of the KJV.  By itself, there&#8217;s nothing wrong with this.  And, in fact, I can&#8217;t think of a good modern English verb that means &#8220;to be patient.&#8221;</p>
<p>But other Greek verbs in the series do end up as verbs in English.  Most translations opt for &#8220;rejoices&#8221; for <i>chairo</i> and <i>sugchairo</i> in verse 13:6, for example.</p>
<p>The problem is that the English mixture of verbs and adjectives destroys the pattern of the original, and, along with the pattern, much of the powerful impact of the original.</p>
<p>Here are approximations of the 15 concepts expressed as verbs in the original:</p>
<p><OL></p>
<li> <I>makrothumeo</i> &#8211; be patient
<li> <I>christeuomai</i> &#8211; be kind
<li> <I>zilow</i> &#8211; be jealous
<li> <I>perpereuomai</i> &#8211; brag
<li> <I>fusiow</i> &#8211; be arrogant
<li> <I>aschimoneo</i> &#8211; behave improperly
<li> <I>ziteo ta eautis</i> &#8211; be self-centered
<li> <I>paroxunomai</i> &#8211; be irritable
<li> <I>logizomai to kakon</i> &#8211; bear a grudge
<li> <I>chairo [epi ti adikia]</i> &#8211; rejoice [because of evil]
<li> <I>sugchairo [ti alitheia]</i> &#8211; rejoice [because of the truth]
<li> <I>stego</i> &#8211; endure
<li> <I>pisteuo</i> &#8211; believe
<li> <I>elpizo</i> &#8211; hope
<li> <I>upomeno</i> &#8211; endure
</ol>
<p>Can you think of 15 verbs or 15 adjectives to express these 15 concepts?</p>
<br />  <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gocomments/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2170/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/comments/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2170/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/godelicious/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2170/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/delicious/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2170/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gofacebook/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2170/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/facebook/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2170/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gotwitter/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2170/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/twitter/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2170/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gostumble/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2170/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/stumble/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2170/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/godigg/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2170/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/digg/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2170/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/goreddit/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2170/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/reddit/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2170/" /></a> <img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=goddidntsaythat.com&amp;blog=9279021&amp;post=2170&amp;subd=goddidntsaythat&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2010/06/27/love-is-what-love-does-on-1-corinthians-13/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>5</slash:comments>
	
		<media:content url="http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/70e8261c60153128ebae9505a20623ce?s=96&#38;d=identicon&#38;r=G" medium="image">
			<media:title type="html">Joel H.</media:title>
		</media:content>
	</item>
		<item>
		<title>Translation Challenge:  The Truth Will Set You Free</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2010/06/09/translation-challenge-the-truth-will-set-you-free/</link>
		<comments>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2010/06/09/translation-challenge-the-truth-will-set-you-free/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jun 2010 14:28:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Joel H.</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[translation challenge]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[translation practice]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible translation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[John 8:32]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[translation]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=2117</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John 8:32 &#8212; &#8220;the truth will set you free&#8221; (i alitheia eleutherosei umas) &#8212; is one of the most well known lines in the Bible. The key words are pretty easy to translate. The Greek alitheia is &#8220;truth&#8221; and eleutherow is the verb &#8220;to free.&#8221; So even thought we might prefer &#8220;the truth will free [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=goddidntsaythat.com&amp;blog=9279021&amp;post=2117&amp;subd=goddidntsaythat&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John 8:32 &#8212; &#8220;the truth will set you free&#8221; <I>(i alitheia eleutherosei umas)</i> &#8212; is one of the most well known lines in the Bible.</p>
<p>The key words are pretty easy to translate.  The Greek <i>alitheia</i> is &#8220;truth&#8221; and <i>eleutherow</i> is the verb &#8220;to free.&#8221;  So even thought we might prefer &#8220;the truth will free you,&#8221; the usual translation seems just fine.</p>
<p>But what the translation doesn&#8217;t capture is the similarity of sound between the two key words:  <i>a<B>L</b>i<B>TH</b>eia</i> and <i>e<b>L</b>eu<b>TH</b>erosei.</i>  (The <I>-sei</i> at the end is part of the verbal declension of <i>eleutherow.)</i></p>
<p>John 8:32 is the second half of a thought that starts in 8:31.  The usual renderings of 8:31 suggest more confusion regarding translation: &#8220;&#8230;if you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples&#8221; (NRSV); &#8220;&#8230;if you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples&#8221; (NIV); or &#8220;&#8230;if you remain in my word, you will truly be my disciples&#8221; (NAB).  The difficult word to translate in this context is <i>meno.</i></p>
<p>I think we again find an important clue in the forms of the words.  The conjugated form of <i>meno</i> (&#8220;continue,&#8221; &#8220;hold,&#8221; &#8220;remain,&#8221; or more generally &#8220;live&#8221;) is <i>meinite,</i> and the word for &#8220;disciples&#8221; is <i>mathitai.</i></p>
<p>Taken in isolation, the similarity of forms hardly seems noteworthy (<i><B>M</b>eini<b>T</b>e</i> and <i><b>M</b>athi<b>T</b>ai).</i>  But in conjunction with 8:32, I think we find two pairs of similar words.</p>
<p>So here&#8217;s the challenge:  Can you think of a way of capturing that important effect in English?</p>
<br />  <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gocomments/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2117/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/comments/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2117/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/godelicious/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2117/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/delicious/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2117/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gofacebook/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2117/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/facebook/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2117/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gotwitter/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2117/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/twitter/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2117/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gostumble/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2117/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/stumble/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2117/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/godigg/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2117/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/digg/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2117/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/goreddit/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2117/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/reddit/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2117/" /></a> <img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=goddidntsaythat.com&amp;blog=9279021&amp;post=2117&amp;subd=goddidntsaythat&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2010/06/09/translation-challenge-the-truth-will-set-you-free/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>9</slash:comments>
	
		<media:content url="http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/70e8261c60153128ebae9505a20623ce?s=96&#38;d=identicon&#38;r=G" medium="image">
			<media:title type="html">Joel H.</media:title>
		</media:content>
	</item>
		<item>
		<title>Growing Old and Fat in God&#8217;s Courtyard</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2010/05/07/growing-old-and-fat-in-gods-courtyard/</link>
		<comments>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2010/05/07/growing-old-and-fat-in-gods-courtyard/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 May 2010 13:58:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Joel H.</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Bible versions]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[translation challenge]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[translation practice]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[translation theory]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible translation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[CEV]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[dashen]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[ESV]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[KJV]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[NIV]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[NLT]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Psalm 92]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[The Message]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[translation]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=2077</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Psalm 92:12 begins a series of verses that compare the righteous to trees: the people, like Palm trees, will blossom and flourish. They will be planted in God&#8217;s courtyard. And they will grow old and fat. What&#8217;s going on is this: In antiquity, most people didn&#8217;t get enough calories to live. Today (in the U.S. [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=goddidntsaythat.com&amp;blog=9279021&amp;post=2077&amp;subd=goddidntsaythat&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Psalm 92:12 begins a series of verses that compare the righteous to trees:  the people, like Palm trees, will blossom and flourish. They will be planted in God&#8217;s courtyard.  And they will grow old and fat.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s going on is this:  In antiquity, most people didn&#8217;t get enough calories to live.  Today (in the U.S. and other &#8220;modern&#8221; Western countries) many people struggle to cut down their caloric intake.  In the days of the Psalms, by contrast, people struggled to get enough. Old age in particular was a challenge, and it wasn&#8217;t uncommon for people to die prematurely because they couldn&#8217;t get enough to eat.</p>
<p>The lucky ones, though, did have enough food.</p>
<p>So &#8220;fat&#8221; back then was the opposite of &#8220;scrawny.&#8221; Or to look at the matter another way, &#8220;healthy and fit&#8221; is now represented by &#8220;thin,&#8221; but it used to pair with &#8220;fat.&#8221;</p>
<p>How, then, should we translate Psalm 92:14?  It reads: the righteous shall bear fruit in old age, being <i>dashen</i> (fat) and <i>ra&#8217;anan</i> (fresh).  Certainly, &#8220;they will bear fruit in old age, being fat and fresh&#8221; doesn&#8217;t have the right ring to it.</p>
<h3>Current Translations</h3>
<p>The KJV&#8217;s &#8220;They shall still bring forth fruit in old age; they shall be fat and flourishing&#8221; is perhaps literally accurate, but it misses the changing role of &#8220;fat.&#8221;</p>
<p>The ESV&#8217;s &#8220;They still bear fruit in old age; they are ever full of sap and green&#8221; might work with trees, but it doesn&#8217;t seem to extend felicitously to people &#8212; &#8220;full of sap&#8221; hardly sounds like a desirable trait for the elderly.</p>
<p>The NIV&#8217;s &#8220;They will still bear fruit in old age, they will stay fresh and green&#8221; seems to suffer from another problem.  &#8220;Green&#8221; in English is usually a metaphor for &#8220;inexperienced.&#8221;  When I read &#8220;fresh and green,&#8221; I don&#8217;t think of the elderly but rather new-comers just starting out.</p>
<p>The NLT goes with, &#8220;Even in old age they will still produce fruit; they will remain vital and green.&#8221;</p>
<p>The CEV offers &#8220;They will be like trees that stay healthy and fruitful, even when they are old.&#8221; That at least makes sense and seems positive, though it seems to miss the poetic impact of the original.</p>
<p>The <i>Message</i>&#8216;s &#8220;lithe and green, virile still in old age&#8221; may be the point, though by spelling out &#8220;virile&#8221; instead of using imagery, it similarly strays significantly from the original.  I also don&#8217;t think that trees are &#8220;virile.&#8221;</p>
<h3>Lessons</h3>
<p>I think this is a clear example of the need to look beyond the literal meaning of words &#8212; &#8220;fat,&#8221; in this case &#8212; and see how they function metaphorically.</p>
<h3>The Challenge</h3>
<p>How would you translate Psalm 92:12-14?</p>
<br />  <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gocomments/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2077/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/comments/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2077/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/godelicious/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2077/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/delicious/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2077/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gofacebook/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2077/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/facebook/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2077/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gotwitter/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2077/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/twitter/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2077/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gostumble/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2077/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/stumble/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2077/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/godigg/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2077/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/digg/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2077/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/goreddit/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2077/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/reddit/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/2077/" /></a> <img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=goddidntsaythat.com&amp;blog=9279021&amp;post=2077&amp;subd=goddidntsaythat&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2010/05/07/growing-old-and-fat-in-gods-courtyard/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>7</slash:comments>
	
		<media:content url="http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/70e8261c60153128ebae9505a20623ce?s=96&#38;d=identicon&#38;r=G" medium="image">
			<media:title type="html">Joel H.</media:title>
		</media:content>
	</item>
		<item>
		<title>Translation Challenge: Song of Solomon</title>
		<link>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2010/03/25/translation-challenge-song-of-solomon/</link>
		<comments>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2010/03/25/translation-challenge-song-of-solomon/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Mar 2010 14:20:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Joel H.</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[translation challenge]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[translation practice]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible translation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Song of Solomon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Song of Songs]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[translation]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goddidntsaythat.com/?p=1885</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In keeping with the spirit of spring, here&#8217;s another post on the Song of Solomon, this time addressing how hard it is to translate the romantic imagery there. Here are two translation challenges: Fragrant Oils Verse 1:3 is supposed to express the physical beauty of the male hero of Song of Solomon, but translations like [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=goddidntsaythat.com&amp;blog=9279021&amp;post=1885&amp;subd=goddidntsaythat&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In keeping with the spirit of spring, here&#8217;s another post on the Song of Solomon, this time addressing how hard it is to translate the romantic imagery there.</p>
<p>Here are two translation challenges:</p>
<h3>Fragrant Oils</h3>
<p>Verse 1:3 is supposed to express the physical beauty of the male hero of Song of Solomon, but translations like &#8220;your anointing oils are fragrant, your name is perfume poured out;&#8221; (NRSV) or &#8220;Your name spoken is a spreading perfume &#8212; that is why the maidens love you&#8221; (NAB) seem neither particularly poetic nor to mirror the Hebrew.<br />
<span id="more-1885"></span><br />
 Here&#8217;s the text:</p>
<table align="center" border="1">
<tr>
<td>
<table>
<tr>
<td align="center"><i>l&#8217;re&#8217;ach</i></td>
<td align="center"><i>sh&#8217;manecha</i></td>
<td align="center"><i>tovim</i></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center">to the odor of</td>
<td align="center">your oils</td>
<td align="center">good</td>
</tr>
</table>
<table>
<tr>
<td align="center"><i>shemen</i></td>
<td align="center"><i>turak</i></td>
<td align="center"><i>sh&#8217;mecha</i></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center">oil</td>
<td align="center">will be emptied</td>
<td align="center">your name</td>
</tr>
</table>
<table>
<tr>
<td align="center"><i>al-ken</i></td>
<td align="center"><i>alamot</i></td>
<td align="center"><i>ahevucha</i></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center">therefore</td>
<td align="center">women</td>
<td align="center">love you</td>
</tr>
</table>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p>The grammar is confusing here, but I think we can proceed without reviewing it completely, because the components of the imagery are clear.  In addition, notice the repetition of &#8220;sh-m,&#8221; in <i>sh&#8217;manecha</i> (&#8220;your oils&#8221;), <i>shemen</i> (&#8220;oil&#8221;) and <i>sh&#8217;mecha</i> (&#8220;your name&#8221;).  I would also add that &#8212; at least in modern America &#8212; &#8220;perfume&#8221; in English doesn&#8217;t seem right for the masculine image of the original.</p>
<p>Any suggestions for a nice, romantic, poetic rendering?</p>
<h3>White and Red</h3>
<p>Verse 5:10 is supposed to set the stage for the color imagery in 5:11, which describes a golden head and raven-black hair, again regarding the male hero.  But mistranslations along the lines of &#8220;my beloved is white and ruddy&#8221;<a href="#tcsosfn1">*</a> (KJV) or &#8220;my lover is radiant and ruddy&#8221; (NAB) seem to miss the poetic mark.  Here&#8217;s the Hebrew:</p>
<table align="center" border="1">
<tr>
<td>
<table>
<tr>
<td align="center"><i>dodi</i></td>
<td align="center"><i>tzach</i></td>
<td align="center"><i>v&#8217;adom</i></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center">my lover</td>
<td align="center">dazzling(?)</td>
<td align="center">and red</td>
</tr>
</table>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p>Who wants to offer some nice poetic English?</p>
<p>(<a name="tcsosfn1">*</a>) As I say in <a href="http://www.AndGodSaid"><I>And God Said</i></a>, the &#8220;white and red&#8221; translation is &#8220;more reminiscent of a children&#8217;s riddle about a newspaper than the Bible.&#8221;</p>
<br />  <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gocomments/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/1885/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/comments/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/1885/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/godelicious/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/1885/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/delicious/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/1885/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gofacebook/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/1885/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/facebook/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/1885/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gotwitter/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/1885/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/twitter/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/1885/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gostumble/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/1885/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/stumble/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/1885/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/godigg/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/1885/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/digg/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/1885/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/goreddit/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/1885/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/reddit/goddidntsaythat.wordpress.com/1885/" /></a> <img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=goddidntsaythat.com&amp;blog=9279021&amp;post=1885&amp;subd=goddidntsaythat&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://goddidntsaythat.com/2010/03/25/translation-challenge-song-of-solomon/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>12</slash:comments>
	
		<media:content url="http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/70e8261c60153128ebae9505a20623ce?s=96&#38;d=identicon&#38;r=G" medium="image">
			<media:title type="html">Joel H.</media:title>
		</media:content>
	</item>
	</channel>
</rss>
